^^ Flipping samples has taken on another meaning. Still doin' it! 
(No clearance on these either ... 
)
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The Architect
Joined: Feb '05
Posts: 3,441Posted 3 months ago #WE WILL BE LIVE AGAIN FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 13th at 12pm PST
Another Batch of OST color edition has been freed up!
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LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 329Posted 3 months ago #Must resist caps. I think I have enough to last me into my 80's.....
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LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 329Posted 3 months ago #And, is that a Christmas jumper?
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P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 574Posted 3 months ago #Looks to be the brim of one of the new hat styles.
But now you've got me thinking about an Xmas sweater with different P-patterns (possibly based on the Highlighter gatefold?)...
(While we're on the subject of merch BTW: I feel it's worth pointing out that Thes intended to have this latest batch of hats ready for the last round of sales. Unfortunately there were delays on the production/supply chain side; pandemic related IIRC.
Folks always seem to be asking for more good[ie]s, but I don't think most realize just how hard Thes works to make it all happen and how many [potential] pitfalls and other issues are involved along the way.) -
12
Joined: Nov '11
Posts: 81Posted 3 months ago #but I don't think most realize just how hard Thes works to make it all happen and how many [potential] pitfalls and other issues are involved along the way.
Hell yeah Twelve, I can only image the strings Thes had to pull to make this happen. I've been seeing it in the bike industry, everybody wants to buy a bike now. Parts, frames, etc. are just hard to come by with the supply chain completely stymied by covid.
On a lighter note that Highlighter gatefold design on a P sweater would be epic!
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LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 329Posted 3 months ago #Second that.
My Trek PHD bike purchase was submitted in September and the bike won't be here until the end of January -
P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 574Posted 3 months ago #What still bothers me about the reissue is that Thes is doing ALL the work (and taking most/all of the risk) while others are are getting paid off it (handsomely + by skimming off the top):
Having to LEASE back his own music from OM Records is tantamount to them saying 'we'll never let you go/allow you to buy back your catalogue or stop controlling/milking you'. OM no doubt had to be paid in advance before anything else could move forward, so they're effectively just laying in the cut, putting a price on PUTS own music and holding out their hand, but not actively contributing anything.
I'm not looking to stir up controversy by stating this as Thes appears to have an arrangement or understanding with them (based on the recent amicable #OmRecords25Years 'Turfbuilders' release) but the situation remains somewhat distasteful.
(Many of you will be aware of De La Soul vs. Tommy Boy. Labels simply have too much power over artists when they can not only contractually take advantage of them during their salad days but own the rights indefinitely, allowing them to exercise control decades down the road and keeping musicians in perpetual servitude!)VMP also get the gas face.
Yes, they provide(d) Thes with an additional outlet ("infrastructure") to market and sell a colored variant of the reissue. This may or may not have been a key factor in the overall calculation regarding the anniversary re-release.
But charging 47$ - a whopping 80% markup on the price of the black "retail" edition - they're definitely not doing anyone any favors here. Pressing colored vinyl isn't THAT much more expensive! Neither are the additional paper goods (stencil + "OBI"; which I'll generously assume cost ~1$ to manufacture/print). Except for these superficial differences the pressing, packaging, etc. of the black and colored variants is identical.
Thes always tries to keep prices affordable (meaning his profit margins are slim), VMP on the other hand are going for a significant markup/profit margin, charging a premium for the (appearance of) exclusivity.
Feel free to form your own opinions...Last but not least (as I'm sure many will have missed this):
Someone on IG asked Thes why he doesn't just make MORE merchandise. Thes responded that he simply couldn't make any more due to economic constraints and had already invested about 18.000$ (!!) months ago in order to manufacture the latest batch of goods. He didn't delve any deeper into how much he'd spent on what, so it's anyone's guess whether this was just for merch or included licensing + pressing costs for the vinyl. But however you break it down, Thes put up a large amount of money, either from his own pocket or drawing on a line of credit via Piecelock (in the midst of a pandemic at that). And that's not even counting all of the additional time + effort invested.This should NOT be taken for granted! Ever!
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new cat
Joined: Nov '20
Posts: 5Posted 3 months ago #I read it more like: VMP paid for the lease, and will take home from the colored press whatever is left after you cut away the costs. Licensing is pretty expensive.. so they might not take home a whole lot to be honest. Explains the higher price as well, and why O.S.T. was not repressed earlier; too high of a price tag for the consumer.
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P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 574Posted 3 months ago #First and foremost: Welcome aboard. (I noticed this is your first ever post on the forum.)
I'm perfectly willing to admit/concede VMP's involvement may have played a (significant?) role in making the reissue feasible (from a monetary/licensing/distribution perspective). Thes mention of them providing "infrastructure" would suggest that is the case (to a certain degree).
However - I point you to the official press release/statement (which YoYoPo quoted in full and preserved on page 1 of this topic).
Allow me to highlight a few key passages for you:Thes One said:
Friends, family, freaks & fans! It is with absolute joy that Double K and I announce the long awaited 2xLP reissue of our classic album OST.After 18 long years, we have untangled the rights enough to step in and literally license back our own album from the holding parties - a costly and unprecedented move for an artist. We hope this business risk inspires others to unlock their back catalogs.
This is an official Piecelock release (PL7025) and it’s being made and paid for by Mike and I, so however you buy it, you are supporting us! On that note, we have partnered with the good folks at @vinylmeplease to create a limited run of green smoke vinyl with an extra PUTS stencil inside. The retail edition will feature black vinyl, and all versions are double lp gatefold with new liner notes, printed sleeves and vinyl cut direct from original masters by our longtime friend @plyman at Infrasonic Sound in Nashville.
This certainly doesn't sound like VMP paid for the lease or financed the pressing costs to me.
Nor does the fact that the reissue is getting a concurrent, widespread retail release at a much more affordable/reasonable price.
(I was going to point out the fact that the reissue is technically a PL70 release, but it appears VMP's policy regarding joint ventures with other labels/imprints is inconsistent as far as that is concerned. Sometimes original labels/copyright holders are credited, sometimes they're omitted entirely.)As far as the cost of licensing is concerned: that ball is firmly in OM Records court. (If) they were asking for a lot of money to even license the music back to the original artist (and I'm certain Thes & Double would have preferred to BUY back/RECLAIM full ownership of their music if it had been feasible to do so) that's on them. Which underscores my earlier point about record labels having too much power/a decidedly unfair permanant advantage over artists.
And it's not like VMP's pricing appears to be particularly dependant on (individual) licensing agreements anyway. They've always charged top dollar.
Case in point: We're talking about a company, which in the midst of a global pandemic (with thousands of people losing their jobs, health insurance or even lives) decided to unilaterally raise the price of their subscription service by ~40%, causing a MASSIVE backlash from their own customer base and losing customers/subscribers by the boatload.
And how did they justify this sudden major price hike? By spouting vague, nebuolus BS about "increasing operating costs" and providing even "better releases" in the future. Not once did they properly address the question of why they suddenly wanted so much more $$.
(Personally I've yet to see any factual evidence of how their releases have "improved" since...)I'm willing to give VMP the benefit of doubt as far as their (extremely poor/insensitive) timing is concerned - no one could have forseen the worldwide pandemic or its economic impact. But it sure seems like they'd already decided they could afford to alienate + lose a certain percentage of their particular demographic (people who are willing to pay top dollar for unspecified "exclusive" releases/the proverbial cat in the bag) while continuing to turn a profit (or even making more money selling fewer records). Customers were willing to pay 30+$ for brand new, colored reissues, so VMP decided they'd try and charge even more!
(That's a nice example of [in]elastic product/demand for you. Word to Stringer Bell. Some folks apparently aren't fussed about paying 40% or 80% markups [inelastic], others understandably take issue with that, aren't willing to pay that much [elastic] and consequently refuse to buy at such prices.) -
new cat
Joined: Nov '20
Posts: 5Posted 3 months ago #Well, you can look at the statement and take it in literally, but knowing the record business there is also a bunch of other stuff. I am quite interested in knowing what untangling the rights enough exactly means
sample clearance or publishing rights? I was mostly talking about the podcast, gotta give it a listen in the near future for context.The whole GZ picture also seems funny, considering how Thes was just recently outspoken for pressing vinyl close to US/LA to mitigate environmental impact. Does VMP press their stuff in Czech Republic?
edit: oh yeah, and f VMP otherwise, their business model is appalling to me.
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The Architect
Joined: Feb '05
Posts: 3,441Posted 3 months ago #As far as I'm aware there are very few vinyl pressing plants remaining and the one in Czech Republic is used heavily by much of the industry. Most of PUTS recent releases including Sincerely The P were pressed there I believe, so that's normal at the moment. Although as twelve highlighted before, as someone in Europe it's pretty galling (both on cost and environmental impact) to have to import a release from the US back to Europe that started its life here. I think some better distribution models are needed, although realise this is difficult for small imprints like PL70.
As far as VMP goes I think they charge a premium as their version is slightly different. In that sense they are charging more just for it being 'exclusvie', I don't think it's got much at all to do with how much it cost to make!
Also can't forget the re-issue has been re-mastered, no doubt another additional up-front cost for Thes...
Does anyone know how many copies overall across the standard + VMP versions have been pressed?
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new cat
Joined: Nov '20
Posts: 5Posted 3 months ago #Yup, I think somewhere down the line I missed the mark on how Pirates Press (CA/US) does indeed use GZ. There's a handful of pressing plants in Europe, with some who have started their business in the 2010's. Not too many pressing plants in the US, a couple what I am seeing, which is ridiculously low for a country with so high demand.
At the end of the day, I'm just glad that this record sees the daylight in a proper re-release via Piecelock, so shoutouts to Thes and Double K for making it happen. It does cost a lot of time and money, these things.
I just ordered my copy through vinyldigital.de but they have their release date as 27th of January 2021. Uhhh..? HHV.de has it 20th of November. Juno has the lowest price, but you can't order from them at this time.
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EP
Joined: Feb '05
Posts: 104Posted 3 months ago #I'm intrigued by the arrangement with OM, and levels of involvement from Thes and VMP.
All we can really go by is the podcast interview, and our interpretations of what he meant when he said that VMP provided the infrastructure. Without confirmed details from Thes (or from someone involved / with a direct line to Thes) it is difficult to know how essential VMP were to this re-release happening.
$47 ($40 members) for the green vinyl is a premium, just like limited edition sneakers (or anything 'numbered' to a certain extent). There will always be a market for that I think, its not necessarily a bad thing though - it's the consumers choice because the release isn't totally exclusive to VMP.
FWIW, once some VMP Redditors discovered that the vinyl was getting a wider release (and it wasn't a release exclusive to VMP, except for the colour) a few people changed their ROTM picks to something else (as they were planning on getting the black vinyl release instead).
In this instance, if VMP had a hand in getting this reissue out there, then credit where credit is due. I don't know if they initially demanded exclusivity, or how the arrangement was thrashed out, but no one is forced to join the club to get their hands on O.S,T, - it's available in quite a few places, so kudos to them for being cool with a wider (non-colour) release that's also available from PL70. I guess you'd have to ask ezbz if he'd preferred to have paid $25 (or $47) compared to the $150 he dropped on the original a few months ago.
I don't want this to devolve in the same way as the previous discussion regarding record clubs, because I really don't have much of a dog in the fight, The VMP price rises aren't great, but members were given plenty of warning, and the option to lock in membership at the lower price. Again, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head here, people have the freedom of choice to subscribe or not - just like Thes had the freedom of choice to get them involved, which he did.
I think that if, as an entity, they were truly some evil monolithic force, out to destroy vinyl culture, Thes wouldn't have even considered partnering up with them, let alone granting them a 1.5 hour interview (in which he seems supremely chill about the arrangement).
Hope you all enjoy spinning it once it arrives.
...oh and congrats to the US forum members (now that orange prick's gone) - hopefully things will start to ease up soon x
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P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 574Posted 3 months ago #Oh wow, this has really taken off all of a sudden...
Will try my best and address everything you guys mentioned - might take me a while.JJH said:
Well, you can look at the statement and take it in literally, but knowing the record business there is also a bunch of other stuff. I am quite interested in knowing what untangling the rights enough exactly means sample clearance or publishing rights? I was mostly talking about the podcast, gotta give it a listen in the near future for context.I believe
Thes One said:
This is an official Piecelock release (PL7025) and it’s being made and paid for by Mike and Iis pretty straightforward and can be taken literally as far as who is behind and paying for the reissue. Or if you want to come at it from the opposite angle: I don't see any reason to question or doubt the veracity of the above statement.
Without Thes involvement there would/should be no reissue, period. He most likely negotiated the lease/licensing agreement with OM (despite their disagreements in the past and the fact that I assume Thes wanted to BUY rather than lease back the rights) to ensure it would be done properly (his way) in terms of presentation and sound quality (-> new mastering). Add the fact that these were probably negotioations over an extended period of time and Thes mentioning paying a substantial amount of money ~6 months ago, which would roughly coincide with how long it takes to prepare and press a vinyl release (from remastering + redesign to receiving finished records).Needless to say I'd be very interested to learn additional details about the various deals, negotiations + contracts involved in making the reissue happen as well. (Not that it's any of our business, really, so I don't expect much or any of this to be publicized.)
Sample clearance, etc. being an issue in "untangling the rights" strikes me as unlikely if this hadn't come up with/since the original 2002 release. Anything Thes & OM *had to* clear or settle would have to have been dealt with irrespective of the reissue.
Other than the official statement from Thes we only have a solitary throwaway sentence at the very end of the VMP podcast with the mention of them providing "infrastructure" to go on so far. (They didn't discuss specifics of the reissue or "exclusive" colored VMP variant beyond that.)
I found the choice of words notable here though: Thes didn't say financing, co-funding, negotiating for rights or anything of the sort. To my knowlege VMP do not own any vinyl presses/production capacities of their own either. What they DO have and could bring to the table are established avenues of promotion and distribution. Infrastructure = roads/networks.
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