A La Carte said:
But i thing PUTS' greatness is also their failing. Production wise i think they are head and shoulders above anything else out there right now. The concepts, and the execution, is brilliant. But, i think you have to return times over to get into the mix and to hear what's going on. Most people i know who listen to music couldn't give a f*** as they only ever listen from an ipod. So who cares about the quality??

To quote Q-tip: "I don't really mind if it's over your head cuz the job of resurrectors is to wake up the dead." Even if people don't appreciate the quality when they first hear it, they'll grow to appreciate it and will start to expect quality from other artists as well. For instance, in college I drank a lot of sh!tty beers and liquors, but now after broadening my horizons there's no way I could go back to drinking keystone light or skol vodka (or any vodka really), but I had to drink both the sh!tty and the good before I realized what was good and what was sh!tty.

And when you say "failings/weakness," I agree if you mean financially speaking. There's no way they'll ever be as big Kanye or Jay Z, especially with their DIY/anti-major label attitude. But that's part of what makes them artistically great, the fact that they're uncompromising.

As far as their lyrics go, I definitely agree that KK is the better lyricist, though Thes is the better producer and they can each hold there own with the other. But what I think is great about the P is that they have a great blend of substance and style. While I think Mac Dre is the greatest rap wordsmith, he'll never be the greatest lyricist because he's completely lacking in substance (Biggie would be another example of this). And on the other hand are lyricists like Immortal Technique whose beat-you-over-the-head political message gets tiresome even though I generally agree with what he's saying; or Atmosphere, who I used to listen to a lot but they've become such a downer lately that my listening has dropped off severely (I do like their new album though, but not nearly as much as 12SP). Substantively though, both Immortal Technique and Atmosphere have a lot of important things to say even if they're lacking in style.

And I do actually think PUTS is socially conscious, just not overtly so. Their attitudes, to me, project a level of social consciousness that is missing from the vast majority of out-of-touch mainstream artists. There's a ton of social consciousness in "Cool Story Bro" for instance, even though the song isn't necessarily packaged as such. And the fact that they don't take themselves too seriously is what makes a song like that great.

Art is nothing if not subjective, so of course there is a lot of room for reasonable disagreement (not that I'm disagreeing with anything that's been said above). But what I like is balance. Balance between substance and style, seriousness and fun, the rough and polished.

The P has that balance.

Failings not the right word, weakness is more apt i think.

There is the gangsta/braggadocio element
There is the flow/wordplay/lyrical brilliance element
There is the conscious style element
etc.

But I feel like no one style is better/worse than the other, and if an emcee/hip hop artist isn't using one of these philosophies in their music (or doesn't make it a point to work toward one of them), I'm not sure it should count toward how "good" they are. If you like conscious rap, that's great, but PUTS has openly stated that they don't ascribe to that style. I think Thes has a serious problem with labels and "necessities" for rap music; he's even openly criticized the "four elements" model of hip hop, overuse of jazz/obscure samples, etc. If the music takes them there, then they'll do it, but it's not their focus.

I'm of two minds. On one hand, I could see why the lyrics might be less crafted: PUTS has said that they are guys who wanted to make music first and foremost, and the lyrics fell in after the fact. Once they decided they didn't want other people rapping over their beats (for the most part) and once they felt strong enough to rap in their own right, they put rhymes in, so I could see that the lyrics would suffer by not being the focus.

On the other hand, Thes earned a poetry fellowship to USC and graduated summa cum laude, so he has a background in wordsmithing, and I've never found any fatal flaw to Double's side of the equation either. I see that the subject matter is usually more light and chill, but again, they know their audience now. Much more laid back. Thes keeps saying over and over again that rappers keep taking themselves "SO... F*CKIN'... SERIOUS" (his caps lock, not mine, haha), and they just stress that Fun DMC. They aren't rapping for the same reasons that other cats are.

Sac, i hear what you're saying. But i thing PUTS' greatness is also their failing. Production wise i think they are head and shoulders above anything else out there right now. The concepts, and the execution, is brilliant. But, i think you have to return times over to get into the mix and to hear what's going on. Most people i know who listen to music couldn't give a f*** as they only ever listen from an ipod. So who cares about the quality??

No criticism on the beat making from me.

I dont have a compelling argument against the p's rapping, i just reckon there's better rappers, if not better packages out there. I think of the Beastie Boys Pauls Boutique, Imo one of the best hip hop albums ever, not the best rapping by a long shot but such good production and concepts and vision the quality of the rap delivery can be forgiven. Put that against " it takes a nation" another of the best rap albums ever and it falls totally short lyrically but conceptually its at least its equal. For me that's where the P sits, I can understand the perspective of not being political/socially conscious etc, but, i reckon the p could still mix it up and have a greater variety of styles. Double's great, the rhyme of 12sp commercial is banging, i don't reckon thes is as good as double rhyme wise (sorry dude). But, its just preference ain't it??

And really, it's difficult to find great music. And that's the way it should be. The time, effort, and expense it takes to find great music is enormous; and it makes perfect sense to me that not everybody wants to put that kind of care and effort into the music they listen to. And that's why people listen to top 40, because they don't really like music that much to put the effort into finding better music.

My wife is similar to Sac's in that sense I think. She generally likes the music I listen to, and she's a P fan too (her favorite song is Pass The 40), but she doesn't want to listen to my music all the time, and I get that. But the major difference is that we approach our musical interests differently, and she's just not willing to go as far and as deep into it as I am. Conversely, she's a foodie and I probably feel the same way about food that she feels about music. I like going to good restaurants and eating good food, but I'm not willing to put the time and effort into finding those places that she is because I just don't care as much.

Then there are the people who flat out have bad taste, people who think Drake is actually a quality artist, or think that the Twilight books are well written. These are just shallow people who will never venture over to the deep end of the pool. As Chris Robinson from the Black Crowes says, "Some like their water shallow, I like mine deep."

Kurt Vonnegut said in his book Timequake something to the effect (I don't have time to look up the actual quote right now) that you can't truly appreciate a piece of art without appreciating the artist. And that while getting to know the art you are getting to know the artist as well. And this is why I think I like the P so much, because I feel like I can really get to know them through their music, and I feel like we have a connection (even if it's mostly one-sided) through the music. And even though I've never met them, I imagine that they're really cool. I feel a sense of camaraderie with them that I feel with my other favorite groups (ATCQ, Rancid, NOFX, Mac Dre, Sublime, DOOM, G Love, Mayer Hawthorne, Curren$y, The Black Crowes, Paul Simon), a sense that we're of a similar mind.

Other people, especially professional critics, may not sense the same thing and therefore won't be able to appreciate PUTS the same way we do. And I may not appreciate the music they like either. I don't care for Mumford and Sons, or Adele, or the Beatles, or countless other critically acclaimed artist. But, again, it's not because they aren't good necessarily, they just don't do anything for me personally.

Luckily, there are plenty of other great groups out there (more than I could ever get around to listening to) if I want to put the effort into finding them.

And I agree with both you and A La Carte that the type of listener matters most.

Hey, A La: With regard to your first comment, I'm definitely on the same page. I look for creativity over being spoon fed by talking heads. My wife listens to popular music forms and always goes with the charts, so she and I clash a lot on what we're gonna listen to in the car, etc. I tell her to form her own opinions, she tells me to go with the flow. The instant gratification/download culture gets me sick 'cause people don't try or take a chance anymore.

But from what I'm hearing in your second post, it sounds like it's more the lyrical side of things that people think is just "ok"... I guess that's where I deviate from the popular opinon... much respect to anyone who comments here, 'cause I'd never tell you you're wrong or misguided or anything. We all have our thoughts on the matter, and I think I can understand where you're coming from. BUT here's sorta what I see:

There is the gangsta/braggadocio element
There is the flow/wordplay/lyrical brilliance element
There is the conscious style element
etc.

But I feel like no one style is better/worse than the other, and if an emcee/hip hop artist isn't using one of these philosophies in their music (or doesn't make it a point to work toward one of them), I'm not sure it should count toward how "good" they are. If you like conscious rap, that's great, but PUTS has openly stated that they don't ascribe to that style. I think Thes has a serious problem with labels and "necessities" for rap music; he's even openly criticized the "four elements" model of hip hop, overuse of jazz/obscure samples, etc. If the music takes them there, then they'll do it, but it's not their focus.

I'm of two minds. On one hand, I could see why the lyrics might be less crafted: PUTS has said that they are guys who wanted to make music first and foremost, and the lyrics fell in after the fact. Once they decided they didn't want other people rapping over their beats (for the most part) and once they felt strong enough to rap in their own right, they put rhymes in, so I could see that the lyrics would suffer by not being the focus.

On the other hand, Thes earned a poetry fellowship to USC and graduated summa cum laude, so he has a background in wordsmithing, and I've never found any fatal flaw to Double's side of the equation either. I see that the subject matter is usually more light and chill, but again, they know their audience now. Much more laid back. Thes keeps saying over and over again that rappers keep taking themselves "SO... F*CKIN'... SERIOUS" (his caps lock, not mine, haha), and they just stress that Fun DMC. They aren't rapping for the same reasons that other cats are.

Without pointing to what they aren't including (social consciousness, etc.), what is it in their flow or their music is not meeting the mark of excellence? I'm especially interested to hear if anyone thinks that their beats are sub-par. Just trying to wrap my head around it.

Lyrically, PUTS ain't the best. There's stronger crews out there from a point of consciousness, and for varying their flows.

Also, my producer used to say to me "make it simple". Puts ain't that. Even hooks like "do the rob ford" are catchy but not the repetetive drivel that fills the charts. And i reckon that turns people off.

I think a band like puts don't get the credit they deserve because people who listen to music, in general, have a low bench mark. My analogy is, how do you know what a good steak is if you've only ever eaten at mcdonalds?

Dont get me wrong I still feel that I feel a bit crazy that this is one of the only hip hop groups I support. So it could feel bias in my terms since we are both really really really big fans. So its pretty hard to say that we dont open up. Its more philosophical than that. Its a bit deeper and root goes on to what type of listeners we are. We dug them for a reason and its not just the beats or rhyming ,but community or like an upbringing of how the group came up. The origins is kind of close to us. They never meant to be the hardest group in hip hop. I feel that the only reason I am here is that I feel appreciated. There is no other group alive that actually goes far and beyond as the P. NONE. So we are not crazy we just feel like we big fish in a small pond. If that makes sense (inversely) the way we contribute feels like only certain people would understand how deep the album really is until years later. That is not to say that the P gains more fans every single day.

It seems like, when I read some reviews of PUTS or listen to people talk about them, there is always this theme of "They are really good at what they do, and they are very consistent, and they have a strong album/stage personality, etc. etc. etc. (lots of praise and things)... ... ... ... ... ... but they are unspectacular/just "okay"/alright."

It's like... there's a large component out there that think the P are good... but just good. I'm a huge PUTS fan, and when I listen to a lot of other hip hop out there (even the stuff some of you on here turn me on to), I'm not all that impressed.

Maybe it's a "to each his own" thing, but... can one of you explain to me why the People are considered average quality compared to someone else out there that seems to get rave reviews?? I mean, I've listened to bits and pieces of Living Legends, Kendrick Lamar, Blu... even crazy popular groups like Dilated Peoples and things like that, and... they just don't sound as sonically interesting to me as the P. And the lyrics for a lot of them seem like the same old song and dance. I must be f*ckin' crazy or something.

I go back and check Cypress Hill, Beastie Boys, Tribe, Beatnuts' early stuff, Digable Planets, Ugly Duckling, (the list goes on), and all those groups have personality and did something fresh and interesting with their sound and their lyrics, and the PUTS fits in that mould for me, but a lot of these cats now don't sound as innovative. Sometimes I think I'm just a "fun rhymes", West Coast junkie, but I like some downright gangsta sh*t too sometimes...

I feel like there are three tiers: the music industry and their radio rap and pop rap...f*ck them, I ain't even goin' there... then there's the "underground"/"true" hip hop media and fans that drive the current state of affairs for hip hop, and they pull a lot of weight and get a lot of people nodding their heads on the "yes man" tip... and then there are bunch of scattered, disorganized motherf*ckers like me and other people on here that feel differently.

AM I CRAZY? If you say "yes", I won't get pissed. I just need to know.