re:esomedina's blackstar post:

i feel you about the rawkus days, to a point. i'm 30, and my mind was blown away by both the reflection eternal & mos def 12"s. but i wasnt feeling that album. i think they were believing their own hype, just like many fans at that time. i always, half-jokingly, claim that both mos & kweli fell off after their first singles (i know, in mos' case, he technically had music before that). outside of those 2 single, the company flow lp, and a few joints here and there, rawkus was wack. that's why i think a group like PUTS is cool to this day--they have a body of work that refines and rethinks it's sound. they don't bend to the style of the year, nor do they let their sound stagnate (like with Wu after 96, hiero after ?, dre after 2001...). blackstar had a sound, sort of. all the beats on that were made by a wide variety of cats. unlike illmatic, the vibe was nostalgic in a way that even at 18 yrs old or whatever, it sounded stale and retro. in other words, they KNOW what dope sounds like, but they struggled to create their own dopeness that wasn't informed by an amorphous aesthetic that could too easily slip into competent - but uninspired territory (like 9th wonder's career). the critical acclaim of that record gave a lotta producers the idea that an aight loop and some boring drums is enough to be "real hip hop," illmatic wasnt nostalgic like that. when those single dropped on rap city- that sh!t sounded new! the lion's share of Blackstar was all too familiar. I mean, why give that burn when eminem is doing his thing, atmosphere, cage, (white rap renaissance!) the internet was making it easier to hear regional stuff like blowed/CVE releases, solesides,...& fondle 'em et al--cage/necro, mf doom, juggaknots-were pushing harder interms of progressive concepts and flow. granted, the non-album approach of the label made it so that there was little room for filler

I'm just off the same mindset as eightbitbreaks, I have a higher tolerance for mainstream artists than I think a lot here. I mean there are major differences in the mainstream, Jay-z and I'd even argue T.I. are a lot different breed of artists, than new-age garbage like Souljah Boy.

esomedina said:
I think people refer to Resurrection as Common's classic, not Can I Borrow A Dollar.

As for Illmatic, it's classicness derives from being the first of its kind. I mean, you had to be "there" in 1994 and to have popped that tape in when it was released. Nothing like it existed beforehand. That combination of producers didn't exist on an album before. That flow hadn't existed beforehand. Well, maybe modeled after Rakim, but Nas was different. I mean, The World Is Yours alone makes the entire album classic. Maybe due to it being so short, but that album had no filler. Each song could stand alone and been a single/video. How many albums can claim that beside Beyonce's B'Day? lol

As for Blackstar, again, not to sound like a history teacher or some old relic, but do any of you remember the Rawkus era? When they ruled the 12" market. When all you knew of Mos Def was from "If You Can Huh You Can Hear" and Kweli from "2000 Seasons" ? Only way to hear this dope stuff was to have your own turntable and buy the vinyl or listen to college radio mix shows with tape decks on pause waiting for the next mix to start. Maybe these songs were on the SoundBombing compilation later on, but still, different times. Now with that context, to hear two of the dopest emcees of that era to combine for an album? Crazy! Then for that album to be dope from track 1 to track 13? Mos Def's verse on "Thieves In The Night" is something beyond explaining how good it is.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. To each their own. But I'm curious why you guys don't hold these albums with such a high regard as someone like me.

It's almost like if you don't hear whatever album is deemed a classic in it's original time period, you'll never understand why it's revered. So, I can see why those albums aren't held as classic if heard from an after the fact point of view.

Good post. You know what you're talking about buddy.

Fool on the Hill said:
Lock N Load,
I respect your view of Jay Z although I do not necessarily agree with it. "Reasonable Doubt" was a good, not great, album. "D'evils" was incredible and Premier was on point with that one (but then again, when is he not?). I do enjoy both "Brooklyn's Finest" and "Dead Presidents II" but the rest of the album really didn't hit me as "classic." Blueprint was alright, but I wasn't a big fan, and same goes for his newer stuff. But that is my opinion that I am entitled to have just as you are entitled to have yours.
..............................(trying to cut it down)
Jay Z is a great artist in your mind, but in other people's minds he may not be as good. You shouldn't take that personally, it is simply an opinion, we all have them. But when you say we don't know hip hop, that is a direct attack on the people of this forum. By saying "and are probably hating on the man's cash flow, period," and assuming that we are blindly forming our opinion's of him, you are showing the same ignorance you accuse us of.

You read my mind perfectly!!!

I can't really defend his new sh!t though. "New York" was pretty awful and overplayed like crazy.

But after reading your guys' lists I can see that my tolerance for mainstream artists is much higher than the a lot of you here. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I still love a lot of lesser known artists and the grandfathers of hiphop like freshkest mentioned (bdp, grandmaster flash, afrika bambataa) . f*** it, I just love all forms of hip hop in general :D

I really like E-40 for example, that dude is a bay area legend, but I can see he's gettin no love on the forum haha. Double K did give him a shoutout on Fun DMC though! and he was sampled on stepfather too haha

I asked this question a while back about albums being overrated, and I also made that fat list of artists, so I take responsibility for starting it. Sorry, man!!

No need to apologize Sac. It was a legitimate question. It’s not your fault some people can’t handle other people’s opinions. I also appreciate that some people can offer substantive reasons for their opinions such as yourself and Eso, instead of the all too common punchlines and one-liners.

This thread isn't all that bad, but it is probably the most negative one I've been on so far on this site. Personally, as long as everyone on here is handling it okay, and no one takes "anyone who likes/dislikes this artist/that artist DOESN'T KNOW HIP-HOP" or "Kanye licks sweaty monkey balls" or whatever, then I'd say we can keep the tone negative... if someone's upset by it though, maybe we all oughta cool out, go over to the "underrated" thread, and start posting some stuff we LIKE.

Well, someone did take the “anyone who likes/dislikes this artist/that artist DOESN’T KNOW HIP-HOP” stance (very poorly argued) so I had to say something. Aside from that, I don’t think this thread is negative at all. One can offer arguments without being argumentative.

However, I do believe that there are significant people in hip-hop culture that everyone who claims to be hip-hop should know or be in the process of getting to know (if they are younger). And some significant people/groups of people would include Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaataa, Kool Herc, BDP, the Juice Crew, and the Rock Steady Crew among others.

Very thankful that we're respectful on here. And to think that all the middle-agers and baby boomers think that hip hop is all gangsterism... it p*sses me off.

I do believe this board is one of the more civilized spots though <img src="https://www.putsonline.co.uk/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/pfunk/icon_wink.gif" title=";-)" class="bb_smilies" />

And you'd think that more calm artists wouldn't draw people like that, but on Ben Folds' (singer/songwriter) message boards, there are some D*CKS, and other people back up their right to be that way. I'm a pianist, and Folds can play the instrument pretty d*mn well, and his live shows are a blast, so the only other time I joined a message board, I went on his.

Long story short, there was this one guy calling Ben's new album "faggoty", "trash", etc. and saying "he hasn't put out a good song since '95" and all this other stuff. You'd think people would tell him to go away, but instead, they all tried to jump on the "cool" band wagon and find things to dislike about it. Ben even came on the boards and started asking questions, and people were disrespectful to his face.

I basically got run off the boards when I told the crazy dude that he need to calm down about it and find something to appreciate about the music. Then when I tried to come back, he started purposefully targeting just my posts and tearing down everything I said. I just told the moderator "sorry, dude, but if you can't regulate this sh*t somehow, you're gonna wind up with a troll board and a bunch of negative, sad-*ss people... enjoy it." and I've never been back.

This thread isn't all that bad, but it is probably the most negative one I've been on so far on this site. Personally, as long as everyone on here is handling it okay, and no one takes "anyone who likes/dislikes this artist/that artist DOESN'T KNOW HIP-HOP" or "Kanye licks sweaty monkey balls" or whatever, then I'd say we can keep the tone negative... if someone's upset by it though, maybe we all oughta cool out, go over to the "underrated" thread, and start posting some stuff we LIKE.

Sorry for the length of this post... but yeah, you all suck. Don't make me come to your hometown and beat your *ss. <img src="https://www.putsonline.co.uk/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/pfunk/icon_twisted.gif" title="}:-)" class="bb_smilies" />

SactownConnection said:
I asked this question a while back about albums being overrated, and I also made that fat list of artists, so I take responsibility for starting it. <img src="https://www.putsonline.co.uk/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/pfunk/icon_redface.gif" title=":-//" class="bb_smilies" /> Sorry, man!!

In my defense, I think I just wanted to see what kinds of hip hop listeners were on these boards, so I started asking a lot of questions (still ask them, actually), but maybe I was a little off-base to ask this one because of the negative swing it could've taken.

All good, Sac, I don't blame ya. I'm also interested in peoples musical tastes.
I was simply astounded at the amount of negativity in this thread. I sometimes worry that that kind of attitude is something all too common in Hip Hop - I for one have yet to see similar arguments by people who listen to rock music for lack of a better example... Don't hate - appreciate!

That being said I'm still fighting the urge to reply to some of the criticism offered for certain albums on this thread. I think there's quite a few points that could be mentioned in favor of most of those albums...