okay, this is an argument i have had time and time again with people, i buy all my music on CDs, i dnt even use i tunes coz i like the feel of holding it in my hands, reading whatevers inside and seeing em all lined up.
The problem is i keep bumping into people "mostly other students" who say they love music, but download off limewire regularly? ive tried expaining to them how theyre killing an industry n stopping fresh artists from making it. theyre argument is "musics a right not a privalage" i say "u love it, u buy it".
thing is, wheres it gonna end up? artists putting adverts mid track? Big Brother watching ur internet? CD's n vinyl dissapearing completley? i dunno, its something that really bothers me. what u all think of it? u eva done it? im no here to judge, jus to find out wot people think.
peace
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P fan #1
Joined: Apr '09
Posts: 1,137Posted 16 years ago #Well, think about it this way. A lot of artists (let's disregard the big ones) who are downloaded illegally by college students and the like, wouldn't have their music heard anyway. With the music being readily out there, more people will hear it, artists (P included) can connect with a previously untapped audience.
That being said, I'll still support the P and the little guys. But if I see a free beat tape or EP I won't be hesitant to cop. -
P fan #1
Joined: Sep '09
Posts: 537Posted 16 years ago #My personal thoughts are as follows:
1) Lets say I hear of a new band/artist, I go and check em out. (Youtube, torrent etc.)
2) If I dig it, I buy it.
Is this wrong?
P.S. To that "music is a right, not a privilege" BS: What kind of crazy thinking is that?! What makes music a right? It is a pleasure that you pay for. Like sushi, pepsi, cookies, orange juice, and cheerios. -
P fan #1
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 3,255Posted 16 years ago #I was a Napster freak in 2000. Since then, I've gone through Morpheus, BearShare, LimeWire, Kazaa, and Azureus (which I still torrent from every now and then). Here's my view:
Back in 2000, I was a piss-poor college student who used my extra money buying Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull records and a handful of alt-rock CDs. Sure, I was getting a LOT for free, and it is shameful, but I was a music fiend, and it was my addiction.
As time went on, I began to understand the concept of "compression" in music, and now, listening to a 128kbps mp3 grates on me a bit. When I hear a wavery cymbal crash, it hits me like a fly buzzing around my ear when I'm trying to fall asleep at night. So the music fiend in me realized that, all this time, I'd been getting my musical dope cut with WAY too much baking soda, so I began to replace everything with CDs and LPs
As it stands now, I'll get free downloaded sh*t if I can't find something on a hard copy and I don't have the time or the money to drive to San Francisco or Berkeley and stop off at Amoeba. But if I see the album I downloaded on a rack somewhere, I cop it. As of right now, I legitimately own all my PUTS on a hard copy somewhere. But... as an example: after listening to The Next Stets, I torrented all the Stetsasonic. I don't own any of the Stets on my iPod. I feel bad about it, but I wanted to hear it. If I see it, I'm buying it.
Am I wrong? -
12
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 95Posted 16 years ago #All I'm sayin is this, it is better to benefit from music illegally without the artist receiving direct compensation than it is to not enjoy their product at all. Poor people cant buy cds when our money is going to academic related adventures, and if students and working class people can't listen to the music, then who is it for? What separates music from cheereos is that music has a value that should not be mystified, commodified, or fetishized. Paying for music should be done, artists need to be compensated somehow, but I should never HAVE to pay for the pleasure of music. Take a lesson from the recent turns in pop driven underground rap. The Roketeers, Cool Kids, Clipse, Chip the Ripper and many others (including lil wayne however unfortunate {cliche lil wayne dis}) give their music away free as mixtapes and are able to sustain themselves as artists with an occasional label release, networking with other hip-hop artists for promotion, and concerts at small and medium venues, bars, or schools.
Some may argue that mixtapes have a lower production value than label releases, but I think that this only makes it more raw and direct from the artist. Chuck Inglish of the Cool Kids is one of the dopest producers around, and his best beats are these experimental old school jams reminiscent of Scott LeRock and Eric B with a modern twist off of their mixtapes and the people he works with (Don Cannon etc). Clipse also has some dope production since the Neptunes are largely responsible for the music behind the rappers. The freshness that can be heard on some of the mixtapes from the aforementioned artists cannot be found on a record that is sold at bestbuy, or at a local record store, or anywhere. At a show or on a free mixtape. With these guys you only pay for live entertainment, dope teeshirts and merch that is designed by an artist in the same creative realm as the musicians, and through these purchases you pay for whoever is responsible for the access on the website, and that is it. You don't pay a record exec to OK a project from an office with plants that need to be taken care of by a payed employee, you don't pay for gas on a delivery truck, and you don't pay some hipster at a record store to put the sh!t out. Plus, cds suck. No matter how hard you try that sh!t is gonna get scratched real quick. Vinyl and Digital baby, it is the future.
And in response to the advertisement mid track comment, it is kinda funny and lame to hear DON CANNON or THE CANNON and MIC BOOGIE and all that sh!t over a beat, but at least they have an interesting way of promoting themselves. Cannon always scratches in his name and sh!t, and to me its no different from J Dilla using that siren as a calling card on donuts and pretty much all around town.
ps, sorry if this is too long to read I'm all high and thinking about the social implications of the future of hip-hop so I hope i didnt offend anyone. I just think its easy to hate on downloaders, and I wish there was a better way to get music to the people besides the disc, itunes, or some other corporate hand. and on a last note, I do not download music illegally, I have no need to. Either I have it, its free, I know someone who has it, or the great capitalist holiday is approaching...
merry xmas -
P fan #1
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,874Posted 16 years ago #All I'm sayin is this, it is better to benefit from music illegally without the artist receiving direct compensation than it is to not enjoy their product at all. Poor people cant buy cds when our money is going to academic related adventures, and if students and working class people can't listen to the music, then who is it for? What separates music from cheereos is that music has a value that should not be mystified, commodified, or fetishized. Paying for music should be done, artists need to be compensated somehow, but I should never HAVE to pay for the pleasure of music.
+1 for that musicaldope...
Plus, in retort to the buying CD's arguement, how much money do you think the artist gets from a CD? especially brand new artists who are more likely to take sh!tty deals in order to get their foot in the door... I think downloading music would be a lot worse, a lot more morally indefensible, if the f*cking recording/music industry wasn't such a pile of bullsh!t. It's an industry which sees the profit as priority, and gives not a sh!t about the artistry. So i'll keep downloading stuff, and if i like it, i'll buy the cd or vinyl, to do my part. Most importantly I'll go see the cats when they roll into town, and buy some merchandise and sh!t.
I don't agree with any defense of the industry or the f*cking RIAA... they're a shower of bast@rds... just one mans opinion yo... -
P fan #1
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,415Posted 16 years ago #I'm a bit of a vinyl fiend and can too easily hate on people who just play mp3 or whatever.
I was talking to a mate the other night about a similar topic and I was saying something about being worried about vinyl dissapperaing.
and he said...
"Its still here now, if vinyl was to go it would have gone already"
This comforted me.
Then watching the Gadget Show (UK Channel 5) last night they had Gadget of the decade. I didnt really watch but I caught the Music Gadget of the decade and no surprise the Ipod won.
As much as I didnt like that I had to except that we're nearly in 2010... thats pretty futuristic and times are changing.
Then I looked around my room and was happy to see new songs that had been released on vinyl so its out their if you want it.
This made me think... all these people listening to compressed music thru headphones all the time.
They can't be getting the full effect of it.
For example PUTS put a lot of effort in to making tunes with multi layering etc.
You just have to watch the dvd with Stepfather to see all the layers that you hardly notice but add to the overall effect of a song.
Surely if music can be compressed then you didnt need all the noises, frequencies whatever in the first place?!!
I dont download music so I only buy Vinyl and CD, CDs for the car or if I cant get the tunes on vinyl.
Being a musician is still a job and they need to get paid so they can produce good music. If you want music you should pay for it.
I wouldnt go to a shop and eat all the food and not pay.
Farmers had to grow it (and scientists had to tamper with it haha).
Music isnt a right, it is a privilege.
And we're privileged to get to listen to some dope tunes and I dont mind paying for it.
"I worked too hard for you to f***ing download it" -
P fan #1
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,874Posted 16 years ago #Being a musician is still a job and they need to get paid so they can produce good music. If you want music you should pay for it.
I wouldnt go to a shop and eat all the food and not pay.
Farmers had to grow it
dude, you've bought the official bs explanation hook line and sinker. Seriously, how much money do you think an artist gets from the 10-15 quid price of an album? Maybe (this is a guess) 80p or so? Huge wodges of cash are going to fat cats who have f*ck all in the way of artistry. i just think you've got to give me a better reason to stop downloading tunes than that, i don't buy it... pun unintended... If the prices of albums were more reasonable, say £5, (all that means is taking out the massive cut that the recording industry ciphons off) then i would definitely buy cds. But i don't wanna pay £15 bucks for an album i might not even like that much. I don't have that kinda cash money money...
Plus there's the assumption that all pro-copyright anti download people make, in that if someone downloads something that means they definitely would've bought a hard copy otherwise, which, really, think about it, is another lie... -
P fan #1
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,415Posted 16 years ago #you smoke dodo? said:
dude, you've bought the official bs explanation hook line and sinker. Seriously, how much money do you think an artist gets from the 10-15 quid price of an album? Maybe (this is a guess) 80p or so? Huge wodges of cash are going to fat cats who have f*ck all in the way of artistry. i just think you've got to give me a better reason to stop downloading tunes than that, i don't buy it... pun unintended... If the prices of albums were more reasonable, say £5, (all that means is taking out the massive cut that the recording industry ciphons off) then i would definitely buy cds. But i don't wanna pay £15 bucks for an album i might not even like that much. I don't have that kinda cash money money...
Plus there's the assumption that all pro-copyright anti download people make, in that if someone downloads something that means they definitely would've bought a hard copy otherwise, which, really, think about it, is another lie...
Yes it is true that some fat cat is getting money for nothing really.
My vinyl collection is made up of mainly dnb records.
Pretty much every label I brought from was an independent label run by DJs and/or the artist themselves.
You think of everything you buy from a sandwich to a plasma tv, a percentage of everything sold will go to a fat cat no matter the industry.
The music industy is just that an industry and unless every artist goes independent you will never get away from fat cats who dont give a sh!t about anything but profit and their own bank balance.
My main gripe is the sound quality of music.
Vinyl (in my opinion) and my mates who dont own a single record agree that it sounds better than any format.
Its got soul, character and warmth.
Even if its 80p from a cd sale surely thats better than nothing?
They've got mouths to feed.
I sure as hell wouldnt do my job for free.
Yeah most people wouldnt buy everything they download.
But still someone like Thes One has spent a lot of their time and effort to bring you something special.
The youth of today will soon expect all music to be free.
I haven't got money to burn or singe but I dont mind playing £5 for a single, I know I've got that in my hand and I can play that, then there is the artwork too.
And I may be a super geek but laying down my Beastie Boys LPs and looking at the pictures for 15 minutes brings me joy.
You're not just paying for music and words there are feelings behind it.
If artists dont get money or only get a tiny amount (80p) then they wont be able to afford to make more music. So something must be done. -
12
Joined: Jul '09
Posts: 75Posted 16 years ago #the graph the music industry doesn't want you to see...
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P fan #1
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 1,874Posted 16 years ago #cheers psyche, that's exactly what i was saying... Very interesting how the live revenue for artists has almost reached the recorded revenue for labels... very interesting...
I dunno man, if your talking about music sound quality etc, i totally believe you, i'd rather have the vinyl. On the other hand you can't beat walking around with 40gb of music in your pocket, i love that sh!t.
But i wasn't referring to the physical aspects of the different mediums, i was talking about the music industry and buying cds. I don't think it's fair to compare a totally exploitative industry like the music industry with all other industry and say that in everything you buy, the fat cats will get something. Obviously. But in the music industry, the mark up is ridiculous. Like i already said, if physical, legal mediums of music were priced reasonably, then i would f*ckin pay for em... but they're not.
I just don't buy the old "artists have families to feed" arguement. Sure they do. So do I. So does everyone. But that doesn't mean i'm willing to pay over the odds for a cd...
I just don't think you can make a blanket judgement about people who download music like that, a huge generalisation that they're killing the music industry. Your wrong on that one brother.
And i say if the music industry dies, then good. Maybe a new system will come around where the really successful artists are the ones who have the talent, like PUTS, rather than the motherf*ckers who "fit the bill" of "popular" music, like all the bullsh!t in the charts. -
P fan #1
Joined: Jul '07
Posts: 1,415Posted 16 years ago #Major labels are screwing so many people no doubt.
But illegal downloads are doing just as much damage to music.
I can't see the graph.
So I think I'm going to have to slide out of this one.
But one last point.
Surely the artists themselves should decide what way the industry goes.
How they want to put their music out, how much they want to charge for it etc.
At the end of the day its their livelihood so its in their hands.
As long as the vinyl keeps getting released I'll keep buying it. -
P fan #1
Joined: Jun '09
Posts: 1,659Posted 16 years ago #wow guys, im impressed with the response here!
some really good arguments for and against, certainly better put together than my usual debates with people. lol. just to say, ive got nothing against downloaded music, as long as its paid for. i jus prefer the CD. although i can now see some of the good points of limewire etc,
As for the cuts the industry takes from artists, it does make me rather sick, i wud rather download illegally (if the quality was any good) and send a cheque to the artist in question.
Peace
p.s. cool kids are very good. copped their bake sale album, u know wen the new 1ns out? -
12
Joined: Jun '08
Posts: 95Posted 16 years ago #That graph is great. Where did you find that?
And I hate this MP3 bs arguement. it is technology, not some computer takeover of music. If you think that the music from an mp3 doesnt sound right, you probably have a crummy version (like some of the p vinyl that was printed for fun dmc...). If your ears are seriously that sensitive, then you dont listen to your music loud enough. There is something to be said about the physical nature of the record, but the advantage is only that you can touch and manipulate in real time without latency or any other strange unwanted computer effect. Vinyl is also good because it is durable. MP3s can be just a durably protected in a laptop or an external hard drive. The other advantage to vinyl could be the unavailability of a track on mp3, but if you are buying new music from labels like Hyperdub or something, those songs are pretty much guaranteed gonna be on mp3 as well. There is no reason to buy the record exclusively on plastic. Say what you will about serato(i dont have it but have used it for shows), but thats some f**king cool technology, unfortunately its gonna kill our record stores, which have been dieing since the release of tapes. And believe me, Moderat sounds just danceable off a laptop as it does off a turntable.
Surely the artists themselves should decide what way the industry goes.
How they want to put their music out, how much they want to charge for it etc.
At the end of the day its their livelihood so its in their hands
Read up on Marx Lou, the proletariat has no power in the industry. The artists are the exploited workers who experience some serious anomie when they realize that at the end of the day, the power isnt theirs and their product doesn't look familiar either. And if it is in their hands, it is pretty much what they talk about in their music, how they are independent and not selling out to major labels, but wouldnt it be nice if that wasn't an issue and we could get some other social observation or party anthem or whatever instead of listening to the box outside of the box?
I dont have the bake sale or their new abum, but i think it just came out. Like i was saying, i dont buy much music these days.... But check out that Chip the Ripper Mixtape called The Cleveland Show. There are tons of low key producers, and Chuck Inglish has the dopest beat on the song called Fat Raps. -
P fan #1
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 3,255Posted 16 years ago #Woah.
This was the kind of flame I was expecting over in the politics thread. You guys are certainly passionate about downloading. Not that I'm trying to trivialize your actual opinions, far from it. I think it's cool to see the discussion. The tone's a little rough right now (are people really wrong? are the arguments really bullshizzle? c'mon, y'all... you're sounding like neocons up in here)... I guess it's that passion showing through...
I think we can summarize the positives (+) and negatives (-) thus:
Hard Copies (CDs/LPs):
+ you get the artwork, complete artist's vision, etc.
+ better sound quality (in a lot of cases)
+ you "own" the music
- more expensive, with most of the money feeding the corporate media machine
- some hard copies are difficult/impossible to find
Digital Downloads (mp3s, iTunes):
+ cheaper
+ more portable
+ allows one to peruse other artists to find what they want to buy on hard copy
- a lot of it is "illegal", and you're not giving the artists their (paltry) dues/royalties <-- COUNTERPOINT: you could make up for this by seeing the artists live (if they are still around to see) <-- COUNTERCOUNTERPOINT: it's still tehnically "stealing" from the artist (like taking a fork from Thes's silverware drawer instead of a stereo or something), and boycotting the hard copy won't change much in the music industry
- compressed sound, worse quality <-- COUNTERPOINT: the sound is passable enough to enjoy it just as much as the hard copy COUNTERCOUNTERPOINT: when listening to dynamic music [classical, softer songs, etc.], compression can REALLY get heard, and you don't WANT it to be loud... some of us care about the detail inherent in the work that may get lost with the compression...
Let me add one thing: if I could, I'd own all the sh*t I love on a hard copy like vinyl or DVD-audio... professionally record all of it to wav files... buy like three iPods and then load them up with those .wav files instead of .mp3s... then get some ridculously awesome headphones.
But for right now, I'll take everything at the best quality I can get and make the correct decisions on which hard copies. Indie labels, if possible.
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