12
Joined: Nov '11
Posts: 81
Thes just released this post on his instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BISbGYVDCvM/?taken-by=piecelock70
I am excited to get this album on wax. The black and white swirl vinyl should be a dope combination! Just another awesome work of art infused music. Also interested to see how PL70 and Redfinition Records will evolve. Glad to see PUTS is getting some help with the development of their records. Will probably release some of the workload for Thes.
LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 340
Good stuff. Will try and be in a place where I can buy it
Now, does puts' releases seem to be more sought after than they used to??
LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 340
I don't think it's the collaboration with Redefinition, more that it's vinyl perhaps. The chemistry collaboration stuff went fast and that's understandable as it was limited edition stuff.
I'll be surprised if there's any vinyl left on day two.
Its either, too few records being pressed.
Too many puts fans.
Too many speculators thinking they can sell on at a nice profit.
Each time there's a new drop of merchandise there's a buzz (or is it just me!)
mod
Joined: May '05
Posts: 1,879
A La Carte said:
...Its either, too few records being pressed.
Too many puts fans.
Too many speculators thinking they can sell on at a nice profit.
Each time there's a new drop of merchandise there's a buzz (or is it just me!)
I think that it's a little of all of these combined; PUTS is trying to bring the younger generations into the fold which seems to be working to some extent. That generation seems to be getting into vinyl more an more as it's the hipster thing to do... Which is fine by me. Then you also have the opportunistic a**holes that are buying as much quantity of the release and reselling on eBay/Amazon/Discogs etc. The 10YOTO box is a prime example of this IMO. Thes sold that at a way low cost for what it was and then instantly saw more than one hit eBay for 2 to 3 times what he charged.
I think that the uptick in vinyl sales has obviously led to this problem as more people are searching for vinyl releases than they were say 10 years ago.
Either way it sucks to see, especially when Thes is doing us a huge favor by keeping items as low-priced as possible for the real fans be able to purchase. Unfortunately it doesn't always pan out that way... 
12
Joined: Nov '11
Posts: 81
SLC and Al La Carte, you guys make some good points. I guess there has been a ban wagon of purchasing vinyls in the last few years. However, I wonder if PUTS has gain more followers in the past few years based on their music/merchandise *rarity* or if they are gaining more young followers due to their musical talent and "genre" if you will. It seems they have sold out their last two albums (12 Step Program and TGOS P1.) quit quickly. I think Highlighter went within a week but I can't remember,
SLC Head said:
Then you also have the opportunistic a**holes that are buying as much quantity of the release and reselling on eBay/Amazon/Discogs etc. The 10YOTO box is a prime example of this IMO.
It is unfortunate to see people take advantage of something which Thes offered to his fans. He wasn't trying to make money off of these boxsets and there was a lot of soul put into the curation of the boxset itself (what with us fans allowing to write in the booklet, etc.).
There are pros and cons to vinyl sales increase, PUTS gets to branch out to different groups and expand their fan horizon whilst also being targeted by resale chumps. I guess we can't have our cake and eat it, unfortunately this will happen even when PUTS makes it for the fans. Some people will just only look at it for profit in the wrong way.
P fan #1
Joined: Sep '11
Posts: 975
It's a strange one...I love a limited vinyl release - providing I'm lucky enough to snap one up!
I suppose Thes doesn't want to over produce and waste money so it's always safer to produce less and sell out. Makes it difficult I suppose for the true P/vinyl fan, but if you want it enough then generally you can get one.
Buying and selling records is a business, but as already commented on above unfortunately people will always take the piss and want to buy things like the box set to sell on...its the world we live in. We just have to hope this stays in the minority...
LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 340
I ummed and arr'd about the Boxley qnd ultimately didn't go for it as money was tight at that point. Kind of wish I did though. (if anyone's got a spare!).
The Boxset, iirc, didn't sell out immediately, whereas the the recent vinyl has.
It may have been todo with the cost of the overall package of the 10yoft1. Maybe.
Andymak, you're totally right, we can't have our cake and eat it. We all want puts to continue to be commercially viable so they can continue making the music we love. But, I can't say I enjoy the clamour for the merchandise.
I was totally lucky with the hat last time round. Thes released some more onto the Web just as I was browsing.
Maybe we club together and contact Thes for a presale purchase. Members first and all that ????
P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 577
1. Please stop saying vinylS. 
the plural of vinyl is vinyl (or records if you feel compelled to have that S at the end, LOL). And for that matter please don't ever use the expression "limited vinyl" either unless you're someone looking to make profit by selling said vinyl.
At the risk of going on a bit of a rant here: Of course any vinyl release in this day and age will be "limited" - to however many copies people believe they can sell within a reasonable amount of time and/or without tying up too many economic resources. Depending on whether it's an independent artist like the P or a major label having the records pressed this means quantities between 1 and several thousand copies being ordered/sold at that time. The most common approach in "undergound" Hip Hop circles appears to be 300-500 copies because that's roughly how big the market is for many of these releases. Also, I understand these numbers make a certain amount of sense production wise, as smaller pressing runs also mean high costs per unit. In a way I consider something like Thes recent 'Triple Digits EP' to be much closer to a (non-commercial) test pressing, but I digress...
One thing separating these "limited" releases from another is whether there's a sufficient supply to satisfy the (initial) demand and whether or not they will be repressed down the line if they become sought after, and here's where the (label) politics come into play.
I honestly believe that an artist/label there's really no good reason to paint yourself into a corner by declaring you're only manufacturing X copies and that's it for all eternity. (If there's people out there who'd want to buy your music but simply cannot do so that sucks, not least because you're effectively missing out on those additional sales AND disappointing fans.)
So smart labels will try and match their pressing runs to how many records they think they can realistically sell the best they can. But that's making it sound much easier than it is - it's very difficult to anticipate how most records will sell.
A lot of this "limited" hype in recent years is just that though: HYPE!!! Many labels seem to have adopted it as their general business/sales policy to constantly bombard people with "buy now or (miss out and) cry later" propaganda. It's a marketing tool to them. By telling potential customers these tales and emphasizing over and over how few copies there are and how "special"/"exclusive" a certain record is they're getting folks to do what they want 'em to: fork over their cash. ASAP. Preorders, anyone??? Same deal. (I try to stay on top of current releases as much as possible, but TBH I'm over wanting to pay for something months in advance... Most of the time it boils down to how much I like/would like to own a record by now, and whether I'll be able to pick it up for a reasonable price further down the line.)
So that's a large part of why many records appear to be "rare"/sought after/in demand nowadays. Not that the P are doing it, but almost everyone selling records these days has an active interest in letting/making people believe their vinyl is (or soon will be) hard to come by.
The whole vinyl resurgence thing also plays a big part in it of course. There are a lot of people buying records (again) now, and many of them are of course looking for older records, too. The prices for many dope records on the secondary market have multiplied over the last couple of years. It's not just the P back catalogue (, although I'll be the first to admit I was surprised to learn how expensive the albums have become). I'd say overall it's a sellers' market ATM.
Thankfully I haven't seen P records become a grip and flip commodity yet though. (I must admit I really loathe those opportunistic jerks who cop records only to triple the price and stick em on discogs the very next day. It's like they're thumbing their noses at the artists/labels who put in work to make/release those records as well as their fellow fans by trying to make a quick buck at someone else's expense. 
I'm pretty sure there's such a thing as vinyl karma, and if not I pray the record gods see fit to smite a few of these crooks. 
)
While some items on PL70 sold out quickly, sometimes in a matter of days, this doesn't necessarily mean they were "sold out". It meant Thes didn't have any more for sale direcly, but usually retailers and distributors would have copies available for a good while after that. I'd swear the Highlighter 2LP took > a year to sell out direct, too, for that matter..?
One thing I really blame for the more ridiculous increase of "going rates" on used records is discogs! Don't get me wrong, I love the database and marketplace, but since the average Joe and 9/10 record store owners have started using it as a reference for prices/pricing there's also a definite downside to it, too. The funny thing is, most of them are actually doing it wrong, looking at current individual prices instead of the sales history and average sales price. Records that sit on discogs virtual shelves forever do so because they're too expensive and no one is willing to pay that much. But a lot of people are greedy and think they can sell their record for roughly the highest amount any copy has ever sold for, often regardless of its condition, too: if someone bought a sealed mint LP 3 years ago for $50 they'll ask $45 for their own VG+ copy with magic marker on the labels and a tattered cover... 
Before discogs a lot of sales took place on ebay, making them much harder to trace (that is unless they went high enough to make it onto popsike 
). The limited time of offers and the lack of fixed prices also prevented a lot of selling/reselling shenanigans. Sellers couldn't just multiply the price they bought the record for, they depended on at least 2 people driving it up through their bids. On discogs most sellers don't even have offers enabled, so no one will tempted to haggle about their overpriced items. They can't even be arsed to decline low offers...
To be fair, I'm sure there's also a handful people who list records they don't really want to sell on discogs for silly money - to them their asking price simply represents the amount they'd be willing to part with their precious record for.
P fan #1
Joined: Sep '11
Posts: 975
Twelve said:
And for that matter please don't ever use the expression "limited vinyl" either unless you're someone looking to make profit by selling said vinyl.
I respect all of your comments but just to clear the above issue. Perhaps my choice of the word "limited" was incorrect, as of course you are right in saying every release is "limited"...but in no way am I looking to make profit by selling said vinyl.
I merely meant that if the number of vinyl produced is very low, then I enjoy being lucky enough to own it, and I suppose it feels a bit more "special" than some other vinyl. Of course I wish everybody could own it and enjoy it as much as me, but if only so many get made, that's not my problem.
I have sold a load of old vinyl from years ago that I no longer listen to, and I sold it for what I thought was the going rate...and in no way was I trying to rip people off...just like I have bought vinyl for what I thought was the going rate. I wish I could always buy direct from the source but it's not always possible, so I do use discogs, and I'm glad it's there...when used correctly.
I wish it was a perfect world but unfortunately it's not, and we just have to hope that the majority of people are fair and don't buy "smaller" releases just to make money and stop the true fans from getting a copy.
I sometimes buy two copies of the same record...however, I don't do it with very small releases as in my opinion that would be wrong. In some cases I will buy one colour vinyl, and one black vinyl of the same record, thus giving other people the chance to get one of the "rarer" colour versions. This is a rare thing though as money doesn't grow on trees.
I will hopefully get my hands on a copy of TGOS2...as otherwise I'll never be able to listen to it!
P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 577
Tibbs, my comment about people using the expression "limited vinyl" wan't aimed at anyone in particular, and certainly not at you either (even if you happened to mention it earlier in the thread). 
I've just noticed people talking about records in that manner for a while now, and TBH it kinda creeps me out and makes me shake my head at this point. A record is a record first and foremost, regardless of how many copies were pressed. And it's not like combining the words "limited" and "vinyl" significantly alters the subject either - unlike "sea" and "monkey", which gives you a whole different animal... The whole "ltd" tag is mainly a sales/hype term nowadays, and it's gotten to the point where it's almost more important how many (few) copies of some release there are, than whether the musical content is any good. (Think Record Store Day and all the gimmicky, overpriced, often decidedly unnecessary vinyl they press up for it, i.e. those Ghostbusters Picture Discs, etc.)
Personally I think the whole "ltd" tag is being used way too liberally as well: the umpteenth Pink Floyd reissue with several thousand copies in curculation every few years (, or the 15th different pressing of 'Operation Doomsday' in the last 7 years if you prefer,) simply should NOT be in the same category as something that had 100 copies or less pressed up once.
The term ceases to have any meaning otherwise - unless it's meant to imply that there (intentionally) aren't enough copies of any given release manufactured to go around and satisfy the demand...
I completely agree with you about the "live and let live" approach to buying vinyl in any case. There's nothing inherently wrong with owning more than 1 copy of certain records, especially if you use 'em for DJing, want to keep a pristine spare to frame/pull out in 20 years, etc. etc., but to me the greedy, profit-minded grip & flip resale game is completely unnatural.
The Architect
Joined: Feb '05
Posts: 3,618
Def agree with you Twelve. Given the speed Thes has been selling out the albums recently, I'd imagine he could definitely increase the pressing run. Or do a re-press when needed.
Anyway, hyped about getting the vinyl! Will ask if we can have a P Army pre-sale...
P fan #1
Joined: May '10
Posts: 577
Yeah, Thes probably could increase the intial pressing run by a couple hundred copies...
I don't really think it should be a big issue from here on out however, as Redef haven't really played that "limited" angle in years now. (In fact they made a conscious decision at the time not to do it anymore - a decision I definitely applaud and think other labels should take note of.) They believe in their own releases so there's no need for the typical hype machinery. And while their motto is "quality over quantity" that applies to the content and presentation of their product rather than pressing numbers.
For those who might not know, Redef have kept their best selling title, Damu's 'How It Should Sound Vol.s 1&2' in print for years through a string of tasteful reprints, each of which contain the same music, but have (slightly) different artwork and/or colored vinyl. They've also reissued the 'Supply For Demand' LP as well as Klaus Layer's debut 'The Adventures of Captain Crook' in this manner, thereby giving more people the chance to own these records at regular prices without upsetting those who bought the first editions.
And this isn't one of those cases where a label explicitly promoted some release as "limited edition" and charged premium prices only to opportunistically go back on their word mere months after it had sold out like some others continue to do... (*cough* Stones Throw *cough* SOS)
I'm always happy to see artists and labels doing well and continuing to sell copies of their records, but I definitely frown upon labels playing both ends against the middle at the customer's expense.
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