Where u at on this one Thes?.....Im curious about your feedback!
Im a software guy at the moment and i use midi controllers to trigger everything just as it would react on a pieace of hardware, tho i would like to start doing both and expand my horizons......So whats the goods????
STEEZ
Whats a reasonable priced setup for switching to hardware?
Started 21 years ago by shonsteez / toggle topic info-
mod
Joined: Feb '05
Posts: 488Posted 21 years ago #I'm gonna rant:
This is a can of worms if there ever was one.
It would seem to me that working on a computer, with plug ins and midi and all that etc. is just about the easiest, cheapest, hassle free way to create music in our day. And, under the right terms, it can sound pretty good. Can it sound great, ummm, yeah I guess in a new way, but it can never sound great in a Black Moon, Low End Theory way, know what I'm sayin? So when we have a legacy of classic records recorded on Pro Tools or beats on Fruity Loops, we'll then have some sort of standard for comparison, but what is more surprising is that though this technology has proliferated over the past 8 years, where's the classic records? If it's so much more easier to record and make classic sh!t - how come we don't see tenfold the amount of dope records coming out, sounding better, etc. It's funny because people wonder why they can't get thier sh!t to "hit" right, but damn dude, you're recording beats at 48/96 which is higher than the original resolution of the damn record you sampled. And thus the SP1200 always takes the cake. The MPC60 or 3000 always takes it. It's the sound of classic hip hop, some could argue it's the only sound relevant because the sample rate is where the record is... I'm getting sidetracked.
Alot of records are mad "polished" and very loud, but at equivalent volume levels, they still don't "knock". It's probably because the software/plug ins/ etc were made to make Britney Spears and Little john sounding music. Where was I?
Oh yeah, so as far as hardware goes, it will probably, unless you have at least 100,000 dollars to spend, never sound as "good" as a computer DAW setup. BUT...
when the gear is on and everything is hot and distorting and saturating etc., it can send chills down your spidine! So it's a matter of what you want to do because hardware is a never ending black hole of chasing good sound, and it seems to me that with a computer, a few bootlegs and some light hardware, you have the same studio as the pros (now). If you are comfortable in this medium, it's almost ignorant bliss to stay away from quality, vintage electronics. Trust me.
Ok that said, here's a few pieces of clutch gear to help your Computer setup:
A high quality AD converter (crap in crap out theory)
A good Clock (if you have alot of digital gear, you will need this to keep everything in sync)
If you are sampling: A phono pre and stylus that make your music sound good BEFORE it even hits the sampler
A quality mic pre (even if you have a crappy mic)
Now, stepping up, I would say that either a summing box or a console would be the big move up and out of the box. Depending on what you are willing to spend and how much maintenace tiem you can deal with, there are alot of options.
The names you should research are Neve, API, UREI, PYE..an ebay search on these in Pro audioi can give you a good idea of what is out there, and pretty much most things made by these companys are great and usually worth owning. Then there's the old DBX's, MCI consoles, Altec mixers, all the great small companies like ADR, telefunken, emi, ..etc. It's pretty much never ending. Plus the new stuff, Avalon, Manley etc.
I stay up on all of this stuff so I can pretty much answer a specific question about a piece of gear if you have one.... let me know and good luck researching.
The S -
new cat
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 7Posted 21 years ago #This is good stuff, thanks for the reply Thes...I actually started this thread for the sole reason that i knew u would have some good info on the topic - being that ive read how much u enjoy making music with more traditional tools of trade.
And thus the SP1200 always takes the cake. The MPC60 or 3000 always takes it. It's the sound of classic hip hop
Im actually on the same tip believe it or not???.....I kno, that coming from a guy who says he rocks software is a little hard to swallow right?!......But i do agree, and thats the hiphop and the sound i love.....Whats happened here, is ive settled for what my poor as can get a hold of for the time being, and belive me my wish-list is a mile long...hehe....
One positive thing about starting with software tho is it has still made me learn a ton about mixing, (at least in a digital environment), sample manipulation, arrangement, piano chords,....all that good stuff.....so theres a bright side to the equation too.:-)
But i do really want to experience making music with hardware, whats ironic is all my software rig is setup in the way that emulates hardware, but i do like the big screen to edit on...hehe.....But still, i agree, the secret lies in the A/D conversion and the specific device being used, bit rate prob does play some roll but i dont kno how much?....Cuz i have made my samples low in bitrate on purpose and it still didnt sound the same, so i dunno??.....I think with software, youl never get that warm saturation tho.....thats key.
sh!t, i got so many questions for u still, but im gonna roll out for now and mix this beat down......Ill be back tho, u can count on it.....
Thanks a ton for givin a regular brotha some feedback on something as important as this!....To me this is like the holy grail comin from a person that I emulate musically so thats real cool man....Much respect.
STEEZ
PS - If u got a sec some time go check out some of my tunes on either soundclick or my space....jus click the webpage link below........ -
new cat
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 7Posted 21 years ago #Whats a dope MicPre THester?.......That is one thing im trying to fit in my budget right now.......I kno that the Avalons are the shiz, cuz ive heard what they can do, but damn!!...that sh!t is expensive bro!......Whats more ghetto-priced cuz thats how im livin still...:-(
Thanks again for all the info Thes....U da man!:-)
STEEZ -
12
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 58Posted 21 years ago #shonsteez said: I think with software, youl never get that warm saturation tho.....thats key.
Yeah thats why sooo many people can't give up their hardware and switch to software cos it just isn't as good yet. Im pretty much a software guy my self and am gonna have to get a good preamp to warm my stuff up!
The s... Whats a good stylus to hook up to my 1200 when sampling?
M -
P fan #1
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 524Posted 21 years ago #Ortofon's sound good, but so does the Shure M44G's, personally I use an M44-7, but that's just because I use them to cut with, make sure you got good quality cables with gold contacts, or maybe you could fab up some $$ nickel rca cables, that would be some change right there....... -
new cat
Joined: Mar '05
Posts: 11Posted 21 years ago #shonsteez said: Where u at on this one Thes?.....Im curious about your feedback!
Im a software guy at the moment and i use midi controllers to trigger everything just as it would react on a pieace of hardware, tho i would like to start doing both and expand my horizons......So whats the goods????
STEEZ
I would agree with thes on most of his points. I think every studio these days needs some digital recording software, what with tape being quite scarce these days and all. The best studios seem to be a hybrid of software and hardware. It's all about knowing what to use for each task.
I don't think you'll be able to get a decent console unless you are willing to spend at LEAST 2000$, but probably more like 5000$. That's hard to swallow for most people. I do think that a summing buss is VERY important for digital recording, and a practical solution is just getting a mackie mixer to mix down through. don't use the pres, don't use the EQ, just mix down through it, I think you'll notice a difference.
I agree with Thes that a quality mic pre (even w/ a crappy mic, hey Thriller was done on an SM58!) and converter are important.
Also don't sleep on your mastering software. One of the weakest things about software recording is mastering. It's really the stage where it dithers down the audio to 44.1k 16bit. This is why people still buy masterlinks. This is also why there's a bunch of expensive recording software out there. This is ALSO why if you take you CD to a mastering house the first thing they'll do is run it through a AD/DA converter that costs as much as a new car.
For using software, I would use plugins very lightly.
RE: samplers and sample rate & bit rate. It's more than just the numbers. As I'm sure you guys have tried taking a sample in a computer and bit reducing it to 12 and cutting the sample rate to 22k doesn't work. there's something else going on that cannot be emulated in these samplers. -
new cat
Joined: Mar '05
Posts: 11Posted 21 years ago #mark01v said:
shonsteez said: I think with software, youl never get that warm saturation tho.....thats key.
Yeah thats why sooo many people can't give up their hardware and switch to software cos it just isn't as good yet. Im pretty much a software guy my self and am gonna have to get a good preamp to warm my stuff up!
The s... Whats a good stylus to hook up to my 1200 when sampling?
M
RE: styluses
If you want the best sound when sampling. do youself a favor and don't use the same needles that you cut and scratch with to sample with. All that wear cuts the frequency response dramatically. It doesn't take much scratching to do this either.
Ortophones sound good, but they are pretty loud, make sure your preamp can handle them. I've had records that were cut loud, going through my ortophones and distoring my Vestax preamp! that sucks.
Shures sound okay IMO. Any needles sound pretty good as long as they are kept well.
Your preamp will make a difference too. Unfortunately most dj mixer preamps sound like crap. Rane probably has the best sounding mixers out. I'm sure Allen & Heath is decent too. The UREI reissue sounds good. I've never been happy w/ Vestax's sound.
I would spend money on cables last. I've found little difference in decent cables. Hosa should be fine. If you want to improve the sound if your interconnection, spend the money you'd spend on premium cables and buy an ISOmax box, or 2 transformer coupled DI's you'll notice a dramatic improvement then. I'm sure there will be people that post testimonials of how when they replaced cable x w/ cable y it made a huge difference. Maybe, I just haven't seen evidence myself. Maybe if cable x was a piece of crap and was damaged or something then i can see it. If you are going to spend loot on cables, get RCAs made from quad star cable, that's the best stuff out there. the composition of the RCA connector doesn't make it sound better, that just helps corrosion.
If you are REALLY serious about your phono setup (read, you are ready to drop some loot), start looking at audiofile components, don't even mess with DJ/producer equipment. Audiofiles are on some other _ish.. -
7
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 25Posted 21 years ago #Audiophiles are definitely on another level. Couple thousand for a pre-amp? - no thanks
But I'm saying, ya'll are getting too technical too. And I completely understand searching for the perfect sound and setup (and it IS neverending) and giving out advice but as for starting out, get a used sampler, just enough for you to work and go from there. Master it, learn that machine...and then worry about everything else.
And you may not getting into production, but that goes with anything. Master it and step up. People used to rock on one direct drive and one belt or just had a crappy setup in their bedroom or this and that (fill in the blank here).
My point is always develop skills FIRST, then get technical.
No point in getting the fanciest car out there if you don't know how to drive. And no point in getting one tricked out if all you're doing is driving back and forth from work. Dig? -
P fan #1
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 576Posted 21 years ago #What's software got that hardware doesn't? (seriously, I need to know!) -
new cat
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 7Posted 21 years ago #K, well i aint tryin to turn this thread into another typical Hardware VS Software thread - so can we jus focus on the topic at hand please?......This is coming from a musician/beatmaker that currently uses software but is openmineded to ALL possiblities of making dope music, hence why i started the thread.....
So more hardware advice from peeps that know their sh!t please!!!:-)
STEEZ -
P fan #1
Joined: Apr '05
Posts: 524Posted 21 years ago #The top of the line stylus period:
Shure M97xe, this is the best you're gonna get for under $300, it's dubbed the audiophile cartdrige. Other than the Shure V15VxMR it is the sheeit.
I cry myself to sleep thinking about hardware, but I'm 19, 49,000 dollars in debt, have a car that burns 1 qt of oil a week, and no established credit. I have 4,500 dollars in my bank account but that is for rent, food, gas, car insurance, repairs haha for 14 months. So an akai or sp12 is always outta reach it seems. I allow myself to spend a lil money but it always seems to go to the Peicelock store, jyeah. I'm a f***ing hungry ass b-boy tho, c'mon, we need tips on how to get wholesale hardware.
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