Turntablism

People Under The Stairs Forums » beats, rhymes & life

Turntablism

Started 11 years ago by De La Tribe / toggle topic info

14 posts & 8 voices
latest reply from De La Tribe

Tags:

No tags yet.

De La Tribe

LP
Joined: Apr '14
Posts: 300

Posted 11 years ago #

So I got my 1st record player a little over a year ago and I f***ing love it. Hearing sh!t on record has really opened up music for me beyond what I thought possible. In fact, I have a new pet theory that CD's and mp3's, while much more convenient, have ruined good music for the generations that have only had these mediums available to them. On CD or mp3 Lady Gaga or Taylor Swift might not sound appreciably different than say Bob Dylan or Paul Simon, but the differences on wax are readily apparent as there is so much more to hear on a Bob Dylan record than there is on his CD's. And I'm pretty sure the same could not be said for Swift or Gaga (not that I've taken the time to find out).

One of the biggest examples of the difference between CD and vinyl for me was when I heard Low End Theory on vinyl. The album, which I loved before, suddenly was much more fuller and livelier. And my appreciation for the music grew dramatically even though my appreciation was already pretty high to begin with.

With that said, being a relative newby to vinyl, I still have some questions that maybe some of you true vinyl heads can answer:

1. What makes some record players better than others? I have a crosley, which I like, but I can tell that it was made more for looks than performance. When I get around to buying a better one, what should I be looking for?

2. Why do some older records sound better than new ones (even the 180 gram ones)? My guess is that newer recorded albums aren't recorded for vinyl so the music gets lost in translation when they get put on vinyl as they were recorded to maximize their digital sound. My biggest problem with some newer records is that there seems to be a limit on the volume and/or fullness that I can get out of the record. And maybe this is related to my first question, as the problem could be with my turntable as opposed to the recording.

3. Is recording getting to be better such that soon there won't be a difference between records and mp3's? For example (and this is related to the last question), I know that 12sp and Highlighter were recorded to get the highest quality digital recording possible. And, for 12sp at least, there seems to be better sound quality when I listen to the album as an mp3 on my headphones than it does on vinyl, though I do get that fuller sound with the vinyl. And again, maybe this is due to my record player.

4. What kind of maintenance should I be doing?

Your thoughts would be much appreciated... And please feel free to bring up any other issues that come to mind.

Register
a_salvador

EP
Joined: Nov '11
Posts: 232

Posted 11 years ago #

Yo De La Tribe!!!!!

Great thread by the way!!!
I am far from scientific on this & I know there are loads of heads on here who will answer your questions in the detail you need.
But regarding question 1. Peep's may want to know what you want the deck for. straight forward playing records or possibly DJ skills going forward?!?!?! Also from my experience the stylus can make a massive sound difference. This is one area I definitely believe you get what you pay for!

Re' question 2. I have heard read so many reasons, some conflicting, so look forward to reading responses.
A La Carte

LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 340

Posted 11 years ago #

1. From an 'audiophile' rather than a DJ perspective a turntable has to pick up the signal from the vinyl and transport it to the amp. Obviously there's room for argument from the experts, but, the turntable needs to isolate the record/needle from worldly effects (vibration, electrical effects, fluctuations in speed) and then send the signal onwards. The argument as I see it is fully rigid vs suspended (mine is a 1980's suspended kindof version of a Linn).
For DJ'ing (and its been a while for me) you'll need different characteristics. Stable speed, sturdy motor, quality electrics all wrapped up in a tough exterior.

As a_salvador says, stylus will have a big effect on the sound, mine costs as much as the arm did.....

Thes might be the person round here to answer q2, I'm sure there's different qualities of pressing, the physical depth of the groove or the sharpness of the cutting tools perhaps (like having a filling where the dentist uses blunt tools...). I'm speculating here though.

The sound limit is probably your amp, tt's have a far lower output than cd, radio, mp3 or aux. So, if your amp doesn't have a dedicated tt input you'll need to buy an aftermarket amp to boost the signal. In the UK we have a brand called Pro-Ject which does the job for cheap. The US will have something similar.

3. They'll always be a difference between MP3 and vinyl. Vinyl is a true reproduction, I understand mp3 chops off some of the extremes. Listening to a WAV file on my DAP through my headphones gives me a better soundstage than at home on the fairly expensive hifi. MP3 and heaphones is a more controlled setup than on hifi which will be more picky to speaker placements, where you are in the setup, sounds bouncing around the roomer, reverb etc etc. I do reckon my vinyl also does sound fuller, and slightly more rounded compared to cd or a rip.

4. Maintenance, no idea, never done any on mine in years, it probably does need new bearing oil though.
JK93

EP
Joined: Aug '05
Posts: 262

Posted 11 years ago #

Nice thread. I'm no geek but here goes...

1. Quality of the engineering and parts mainly. The stylus will make a massive difference, as will the quality of the connecting cables you're using. On this note, where do you stop? How good is your amp? How good are your speakers? How good is the speaker wire? There's no point buying a high-end turntable if all your other gear is not that good.

2/3. Most of the 180 gram reissues are probably produced from the new digital sources, rather than the analogue sources on which they were recorded. The problem with MP3s and CD audio is that the sound is compressed sonically. Mini discs were even worse in this respect. If you've ever watched a 3 hour movie on DVD on a big screen, you've probably seen this sort of digital clouding effect. This is because you've crammed a huge amount of data (the film file) into a finite space (the DVD). This is why, despite the insistence of many, blu-rays are so much better (A blu-ray can be as large as 50GB, while a DVD is a max of 9.4GB, if it's dual-layer).

Watching a movie on YouTube is maybe a better comparison. In order to upload it, you've had to keep it under a certain size so YouTube has squished all the life and quality out of it and, most of the time, it looks cruddy. The same principal applies with putting a song onto the limited amount of space a CD or MP3 allows. It has nothing to do with recording techniques, everything to do with the playback format.

The downloads of Highlighter and 12SP were the original .wav or .aiff files (I can't remember which) from Thes' computer, they weren't MP3s. This was what was so revolutionary about the way Highlighter was released; it was the first ever commercial release in original uncompressed audio. In order to turn these tracks into MP3s or CD audio files, they would need to be compressed, and you would lose some of the quality. MP3s are encoded at a max of 320 Kbps, whereas .wav files have no size limited. This is why the Piecelock 70 servers kept crashing in the days after Highlighter's release... that's a staggering amount of data being moved...

Vinyl is a true reproduction of the source, so if the source was the original analogue recording, as would be the case on an old record (an original pressing), you will get a much fuller sound. If the LP is a reissue, the chances are it was produced cheaply using MP3 files (or other compressed digital formats), so there will be no comparison. This is why it's worth paying the difference for original pressings in good condition, IF you're actually going to sit and listen intently to it. If you're a DJ and you're just gonna be playing Skypager at a million decibels to a room full of drunk people, don't take the original, take the repress.

4. Good question. I have a Rega RP1 which, after doing plenty of research, I decided was the best turntable available for under £500 (based on critical consensus). It still has the original stylus which is starting to get old, so that definitely needs replacing. Otherwise it hasn't needed any maintenance. Turntables are mechanical, so they're subject to things going wrong periodically but, as long as you treat it well and don't knock it about, a decent turntable should last 20 years.
De La Tribe

LP
Joined: Apr '14
Posts: 300

Posted 11 years ago #

Thanks for the info, been a huge help so far.

And I do mean for listening purposes; though I did do some djing in college and wouldn't mind getting back into it, but that would only be for fun.

I definitely understand what you're all saying about the speaker quality, and I'm sure that has something to do with it, but I can get that full sound sometimes - depending on the record. For instance, I recently bought the reissue 180 gram vinyl for Exile On Main St., and I can get the full sound out of that one no problem, like I could with Low End Theory (which was also a reissue). But I also just bought the 1st Tenacious D album on 180 gram vinyl and that one I'm having a problem with, and I had a similar problem with Ready To Die and De La Soul is Dead when I bought those. Maybe that's a pressing problem?

Register
A La Carte

LP
Joined: Nov '13
Posts: 340

Posted 11 years ago #

Tongue IN cheek. You'll NEVER get a good sound from a tenacious d record....

Are all the records new, or second hand? If they're not new it could be that they need cleaning.
OceanMan

P fan #1
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 727

Posted 11 years ago #

sometimes, some of the newer pressing are just pressed at a lower volume than others. i have a few like that. sucks. we like it LOUD at my house.

i'd say that you will reach a point soon where you will want to upgrade your Crosley to a better TT.
for home listening only (not DJing) my advice would be to poke around and try to find a decent vintage one... it's true that 'they don't make them like they used to', the bonus being also that if you are 'handy' at al, most older players are easily repairable yourself.

i myself am a huge fan of Technics TTs. old Duals are also quite nice. i love a TT with 'auto-return', harder and harder to find nowadays.
find yourself an old one and just upgrade the cart/stylus yourself.
a nice combo for the price is the widely available Shure M97xE.

Vinyl Engine is a treasure trove of information on just about any turntable you could come across, as well as having downloadable manuals, cartridge protractors, you name it. place is a goldmine.
De La Tribe

LP
Joined: Apr '14
Posts: 300

Posted 11 years ago #

A La Carte said:
Tongue IN cheek. You'll NEVER get a good sound from a tenacious d record....

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! I'll always love Tenacious D though.

f***ing COCKAOS!!!
SactownConnection

P fan #1
Joined: Oct '08
Posts: 3,255

Posted 11 years ago #

Just skimmed this thread and it looks like I'm going to have to take a closer look when I get home... thanks for startin' this, Tribe!
dirt

new cat
Joined: Aug '11
Posts: 22

Posted 11 years ago #

I have the De La Soul is Dead LP and the problem with that (and 3FT High..) was that there were too many tracks squished onto one piece of vinyl making the quality shite. They need to do a proper 2LP release for them.
dirt

new cat
Joined: Aug '11
Posts: 22

Posted 11 years ago #

Come to think of it, I think most Tommy Boy Recs LPs were of dubious quality. The 12"s were excellent but LPs not so much.
Loocas

new cat
Joined: Jan '15
Posts: 11

Posted 11 years ago #

De La Tribe said:
One of the biggest examples of the difference between CD and vinyl for me was when I heard Low End Theory on vinyl. The album, which I loved before, suddenly was much more fuller and livelier. And my appreciation for the music grew dramatically even though my appreciation was already pretty high to begin with.

I just had to sign up for this forum after reading this. I have been collecting and playing vinyl records for a couple years now (Highlighter being one of my first LP's) but haven't noticed too much of a difference. What you say about The Low End Theory, though, encouraged me to listen more closely when I play records. Thanks for that!
OceanMan

P fan #1
Joined: Mar '11
Posts: 727

Posted 11 years ago #

years ago, when we got another turntab;e, the Missus™ & i were dumbfounded when we would play a FLAC copy of something back to back with the same vinyl.

no comparison.
De La Tribe

LP
Joined: Apr '14
Posts: 300

Posted 11 years ago #

One album I've really been wanting to hear on vinyl is The Next Step. The CD has that same flat, muted sound that CD's tend to have (now that I know the difference). I'd love to hear what tracks like Ten Tough Guys, Mid-City Fiesta, and SF Knights really sound like.

And I guess there wouldn't be that much of a difference with Highlighter. The vinyl might sound more three-dimensional, but the digital sound is probably cleaner.

Reply

You must log in to post.